native-like fluency after mid-teens?

[Questionsss]

Hello,

I have been wondering how rare it was for someone to achieve native-like fluency (if we don't consider their accent) in a foreign language, they only started to learn (seriously) at age 16/17 (but had known the basics since age 11 from English class...but without being able to hold an actual conversation/being a C student)?

Any idea how rare this is? Or is it more common than I believe? (it seems like most people who start learning a language after a certain age..even if they move to a country where that language is spoken...usually don't end up speaking it the way a native-speaker does, but will often put things slightly differently (I'm not really wondering about the accent, but about the "nuances"(exp?) of the language)

thank you!

[sideways8]

Are you speaking of yourself or is this a friend of a friend? The question is worded in a personal fashion while you insistently use the word "they" whenever you see fit. As far as achieving fluency in any given language goes to my understanding fluency can be achieved at any age (reasonably) but the speed of fluency development decreases (as you probably may know) as you age.

"Any idea how rare this is?" I don't really see the purpose of this question since it's basically a completely subjective opinion. Given the details you've associated to the individual I could say with great certainty that he is 1 in 7, 000, 000, 000.

"it seems like most people who start learning a language after a certain age" Be careful, you don't want to be caught up in this kind of thinking. Unless you've personally met some arbitrary large % of the population involving "most people" as a piece of empirical evidence is also self-defeating.

In short, either this question is one which solely concerns you and in some sense you are looking for individuals to ascribe you as a rarity giving you're ego a nice big pat on the back. In case you really are writing this out of mere curiosity I should ask you to perhaps rephrase the question such that it seems less personal and more theoretic based.

Cheers!

[Questionsss]

Hmm too bad I just typed a long reply, but then was logged out when trying to submit it.

Here's a summary of what I tried to say:

- I'm not fishing for compliments, but IQ tests gave me confusing results in the past (I started another thread on this in the intelligence forum), thus I'm looking at hints/cues in real life, now...to figure out where I stand.

I don't think I'm an extreme rarity at this and wouldn't be surprised if there are many people on this board with much higher linguistic ability than myself...however, I think it might still be a cue that I'm significantly above average at linguistic abilitiy / attention to detail.

"it seems like most people who start learning a language after a certain age" Be careful, you don't want to be caught up in this kind of thinking. Unless you've personally met some arbitrary large % of the population involving "most people" as a piece of empirical evidence is also self-defeating.

I live in Germany where most people know a bit of English from class, etc. but are normally not fluent by age 20 when they graduate from high school (or well our equivalent of high school). Later in life, in many careers, however they have to speak English on a daily basis, thus get plenty of practice over the years/decades. Yet most of them

a) don't have a native-like accent
b) say many things (nuances(exp?)) differently than a native speaker
c) are still more comfortable/efficient reading in German than in English

I am wondering in particular about b) (and maybe c)).

Keep in mind that I put "it seems".

[sideways8]

"Keep in mind that I put "it seems"."

It seems most people hardly takes away the error in suggesting most people, all you've done is assured to me that you understand it's subjective to a certain extent.

"I'm not fishing for compliments, but IQ tests gave me confusing results in the past (I started another thread on this in the intelligence forum), thus I'm looking at hints/cues in real life, now...to figure out where I stand."

I've seen the other post and it didn't really clarify whether or not you are fishing for compliments since to an onlooker like myself giving information like "C student" and "Well developed language center" raises some flags.

"I don't think I'm an extreme rarity at this and wouldn't be surprised if there are many people on this board with much higher linguistic ability than myself...however, I think it might still be a cue that I'm significantly above average at linguistic abilitiy / attention to detail."

You're probably right in saying that in this board there are individuals with higher linguistic abilities, whatever that means. However mastering to speak a native language has not served (to my knowledge) as a significant indicator of intelligence.

If you've mastered a certain box of tools and you add another object into that which you use at a certain skill level, how am I to differentiate between you who has quite a lot of tools and him who has a few tools but uses all of them excellently? Basically, your comparison between the aptitude of your abilities in the English language compared to those around you doesn't seem to have any reasonably strong correlation with intelligence.

"b) say many things (nuances(exp?)) differently than a native speaker
c) are still more comfortable/efficient reading in German than in English"

These have more to do with the psychology of language acquisition and such. Given that I have only a very limited understanding of such psychology it seems counter productive to try and address these two. If you're interested in b) and c) then take some psychology classes and perhaps you may find a link between intelligence and language traits.

However I doubt anyone on this forum would be able to help you (aside from doing this research on their own and then presenting the information they have discovered). It seems best to find your own answer to this question and I hope that it won't be of the nature "I am linguistically superior.." since that's a problem in itself.

[Questionsss]

EDIT: ...I'm editing this, because I realize it might read somewhat "aggressive" (and after already having caused a c omplete misunderstanding with this poster, I prefer to be overly careful about not causing another one)...please think of me saying the things below not with an aggressive, but with a dissapointed tone ;(

You didn't understand my point, at all, perhaps because you're too busy trying to make me look like I'm conceited (no matter what I say), as your first impression of myself influences you too much (for you to abandon the idea that I must be arrogant). I won't try to continue this conversation with you, because it's pretty obvious all you feel like doing is bashing me.

Is there anyone on here who would like to discuss this topic? I would truly appreciate it.

PS:

@everyone else:

I am really not trying to fish for compliments, at all......and With C-student I was referring to myself in English class (I was a C-student in English class until I was 16/17). And "well-developed language center" is something I never even said.

[Questionsss]

Now, I understand your inability to consider the idea that I might have not been fishing for compliments:

I can relate to your "high IQ" and need to spread the word, I can tell you now, that my high intellegence and immense bragging has brought nothing but negativity, let that knowledge lay in the chambers of your mind, do not let it enter the minds of others, trust me on that if you will.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3092&p=30993&hilit=+immense+bragging+#p30993

Everyone isn't like you. I had never mentioned either one of the scores on the official IQ tests I took to anyone and don't feel the need to do it.

PS: I would still truly appreciate if anyone else on here would help me discuss this topic.

EDIT:

Normally, I let things like these go, but I just can't hold back the urge to mention that you
- confuse the word "then" with "than" and the word "your" with the words "you're" all the time
- You spell intelligence as "intellegence" (quote above)
- In one of the phrases I came across you managed to misspell two words: "statment" and "exclimation marks"

You also mentioned in one post, that you had spent a lot of time on an untimed IQ test, which you figured out you had only done to raise your self-esteem. In another post you said something along the lines "only 145-150 ..highly gifted is enough i guess :-( ..maybe Ill still reach 152,153 later?".

How in the world could IQ/intelligence be correlated with something that you're not good at?

Sorry, but treat people the way you want to be treated by them... not doing so will send even more negativity your way than bragging about your IQ scores...

(...) It seems best to find your own answer to this question and I hope that it won't be of the nature "I am linguistically superior.." since that's a problem in itself.

Honestly, this is really some of the most un-intelligent behaviour I have come across in a while.

Will you please admit that you look EXTREMELY stupid, now, when you have admitted to "immense bragging" about your IQ in the past? Can you please admit that this makes you look totally stupid, now? Hint: Using sophisticated language will not prevent the fact that you look extremely stupid.

PLEASE. ADMIT. IT.

If you don't....I'll register with a new screen name, and call myself IMMENSEBRAGGING, and I'll chip in every single time you say something where I see a chance that it might have been borderline conceited!

(and yes I know it's childish, but it's also fun!)

[sideways8]

Finally someone who tells it like it is!

It's probably true that I make quite a lot of spelling mistakes, it is also probably true that my past experience with intelligence testing has turned me into some kind of arrogant bastard. These are all plausible possibilities.

Judging from the length of your post I would guess I've hit a cord, which makes this all the more exciting since now you've put in some emotion! I'd like to continue this argument, or rather my continual assault on your posts.

In wrapping this whole thing up, the trouble in bringing back past posts is that you're no longer actually targeting me personally. Your targeting the person who wrote that post at the given time. The given argument seems to suggest something along the lines, "Neanderthals are unintelligent -> Humans are unintelligent."

"un-intelligent behaviour" If you would I would greatly appreciate you describing what characteristics intelligent behavior holds?

"Will you please admit that you look EXTREMELY stupid"
I think that goes without saying. Good heavens man! I dare not go before my enemy baring my true self!

I hope you do take the time to respond, It's been a while since someone has had enough of an interest in me to take a look at some of my other posts. I hope we can continue this argument!

[Questionsss]

Un-intelligent behaviour would be something like this:

Typing a long reply, submitting, and realizing once again that you didn't copy it ;-)))

Anyway, what I really meant to say is that I was reminded of the idea that IQ might not be the whole story if you have an IQ in the highly gifted range, but let your emotions (emotional bias?) influence your reasoning so much that you can't even consider the possibility that I might indeed just be curious, and not be fishing for compliments (only because you used to brag about your IQ..).

I simply should have said stupid ;-), but was reminded of a statement called "dissecting practical intelligence theory" or something along the lines where the author...who, I think, basically said that IQ is important, and the idea of practical itnelligence is garbage.......mentioned in her conclusion that it is true that IQ only is a (small?) part of what explains intelligent behaviour.

I think your replies were a perfect example..that emotional intelligence (not only interpersonal/social...but also intrapersonal (not letting your emotional bias,etc. influence you))..really is as important as IQ - when it comes to real life decision making, making decisions in business,etc. (where emotions play a role).

I don't know what emotional itnelligence is believed to be exactly, so maybe I shouldn't throw around these words....but I do believe that when you're not just dealing with numbers (maths, physics,programming,etc.) but are making (other..) decisions, then emotions(/context?) often play a big role.

I've seen it before that someone with a high IQ came to a stupid conclusion/made a stupid decision (and was extremely persistent about it being right), not because his IQ wasn't high enough, but because he had no "common sense"/couldn't let go of the idea that his theory must be right (when there was abundant proof in the "real world" that he was just plain wrong).

ANyway, I should have used the expression un-itnelligent behaviour ,but just said "stupid", I guess....but the reason I used that expressio nwas because I had been reminded of "dissecting practical itnelligence"(or something along thoe lines) where the author who was big on IQ/"g", mentioned that IQ is far from everything there is to intelligent behaviour.

...

Another example of "un-intelligent" behaviour and letting your emotions influence you too much...would be the fact that I typed that long reply, when the smarter decision would have been to just ignore what you said, and don't waste any more of my time on it.

Not doing so, imho, was un-intelligent behaviour by myself..or well it was stupid ;-).

At least in most cases (should have typed "would have been" above), it would have been b/c normally the other person wouldn't have replied the way you just did ;-)

...

Which (what?) argument do you want to continue, btw? b/c I didnt come here to win an argument, but to figure something out

[sideways8]

"but let your emotions (emotional bias?) influence your reasoning so much that you can't even consider the possibility that I might indeed just be curious, and not be fishing for compliments"

I don't really think my emotions had very much to do with it. I used my judgement and personal experience to conclude that (based on your two posts, one in this section and one in the other) the question was most likely one which desired a good ego-stroke. Keep in mind that I did give the plausibility that I might be wrong and given this I had acted on such an option giving you an alternative had what I said not been the case.

"I've seen it before that someone with a high IQ came to a stupid conclusion/made a stupid decision"
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this and assume that what I had said was completely off point. However, since I re-read all the posts in this discussion prior to any post I would hope you should do the same and see if you can't find something personal in the posts you've made.

It would have been simpler to ask about certain traits different individuals exhibit in language acquisition and whether language acquisition (age, fluency, progressive development) has any roots in linguistic intelligence.

This is a question that I, myself would regard to be based on interest in the subject (i.e. curiosity). If you put yourself in the question, it is my position that you're looking for something else in the question besides the theoretically direct answer.

"Which (what?) argument do you want to continue, btw? b/c I didnt come here to win an argument, but to figure something out "

I was under the impression that we've been speaking of things pertaining to language/linguistics? I just find it effective to take care of things line-by-line and point out any inadequacies I see, regardless if they pertain to the topic or not.

It may not seem like it, but I am trying to help you. If by any means I could aid an individual in avoiding a certain thought structure that is ultimately self-destructive than I shall try my best to help. Emotions can hinder or advance an argument, regardless you should always try to take away as much as you can from any conversation. In my case I have been aware that my spelling is poor but I had established (in my earlier years while on this forum) that although I may be particularly poor at spelling as long as the idea I had constructed was unharmed I wasn't in too great a concern.

However, I do recognize the need to improve my grammar and have planned on taking the proper course of action to solve this greatest of dilemmas!

[Questionsss]

You do not need to improve your grammar or spelling. You just need to improve your behaviour, then nobody will use it to attack you..

[sideways8]

I think my behavior is fine! Generally speaking I don't find too many problems with how I go about things involving social interaction.

I think the bigger problem is, what kind of a individual would use something as irrelevant as proper grammar and spelling in a discussion concerning intellect and language acquisition in a destructive means against another individual! That's basically a Ad hominem. Nevertheless, I do applaud the fact that you did retaliate and stuck through the argument afterwards as opposed to dishing out a sequence of insults and then disappearing for all of eternity!

[spookje]

"and then disappearing for all of eternity!"

Of course most of them come back with many many other identities. Actually there are only about 5 guys we are dealing with :-)

[spookje]

"You do not need to improve your grammar or spelling. You just need to improve your behaviour, then nobody will use it to attack you.."

This is cool stuff, I will try to remember it. Did you mean this generally speaking, or does it only apply to sideways8?